congratulation

[marina]

Hello together,

congratulation to the admis, for open this board and much success.
Its important that this big liars "Gigolos" have not much chance to broken the feelings and noney from europe woman!
Only by internet education like this board we can help to stop this big liars and conmans.

I am from germany and I had start a board before one year about information from egypt and we have a black.list there too.

www.carookee.com/forum/egypt.live

greeting
Marina

[thomas]

Hello

can u do me a favour and see if u can find my ex on there or give me a password as I can't read german!

thanks.

he has devasted my life really and stole money and my heart.

[opelmoon]

I think this is very good ... people helping others avoid scams.
After reading much I am confussed... I know not all Egyptian men are false but how can we know for sure? Is it lack of language skills that alot seem to say much of the same things or is it that they know just what to say to try and capture the affection of a woman.
Is there any true sure fire way to know if he is being honest and sincere ?

[sonicdude]

Opelmoon,

I think you need to prepare yourself with some clues and things to watch out for. Probably you can add to this list below. I look forward to any Egyptian women adding some comments. I had to make this in few postings as there is a character limit per post.

Signs to watch out for with Egyptian men

1) Too quick to impress you with his career, status, or with name dropping. All men feel the need to impress as a part of flirting. This is normal. But the speed and immediateness of it can be a clue that he is not being completely honest or cannot maintain patience and calmness of his ego. And remember, quirks of the ego early on are often signs of bad things to come.

2) Too quick to use all sorts of charm wording and sweet-talk. Basically what he is doing is trying to impress you too fast. It might not be anything bad, just him really trying hard. But a more mature and level-headed man who has self-control feels less the need to impress with words as they know that actions over time are more important. Sweet-talking too quickly, meaning at the beginning of a relationship, is more about bait, trickery, and trying to lure you in. Normal chatting and discussion in a non sweet-talk mode is more reflective of maturity and someone really wanting to get to know you. Too much sweet-talk wording is a clear sign to me that he is wanting to con you. Because if he doesn’t have that manipulative intention in his mind, then he simply doesn’t have that huge need to impress so much.

3) Is he giving you the time to speak fully to share your ideas, thoughts, opinions? Is he following up with more questions? Or is he just interrupting and putting the topic back onto himself and back onto his opinion? Patience, silence, and withdrawal are all good signs to look out for in a man.

4) If you and him are of a different religion, is he trying to get you to convert to his religion only? Has he offered to change his religion to yours? Is he willing to be more adaptive and allow both you and him to have separate religions? If this later, then that is a real good sign. Who cares if he says ‘what is the family going to think’ and such. A man who is willing to support your beliefs and respect your religion is great sign. Doesn’t mean it has to end up with you and him having a separate religion, but his responses to this issue are clues that give insight into his personality.

5) Is this man always presenting himself as 100% perfect during the initial meeting stages? Is his behavior perfect, is his wording and charm perfect, is he giving you ideas and thoughts that are always perfect? Perfection so early is usually a sign of a fraudulent person; someone who is covering up faults . When a man reveals some faults quickly, that is a good thing. Even though the faults might be bothersome to you, at least that is feedback into his true nature. Covering up everything with a guise of perfection means ultimately you have to spend more time and energy into peeling away these layers to determine if he is a truly good man. Besides, a 100% perfect mask is simply a sign of a man who may have things he is covering up, or is insecure (which might be a sign that control will manifest later), or he believes that starting a relationship based on deception is healthy. Too good to be true, might be a good thing to keep in mind. I know women want Prince Charming. But if he is too good too fast right at the start… just keep your eyes open for nobody is perfect and question why he is wanting to present himself ONLY as perfect.

6) Can you verify anything he is saying about himself? You need to try to find verification of stuff. You need to try and communicate with one of his friends, family members, or colleagues, not to probe and ask questions, but rather just to see if he is the same sort of guy that they know. If he is conveniently avoiding you meeting or knowing anybody in his life, that is a bad sign. If you “accidentally” spoke with a friend or family member, and he responds with anger, that is a bad sign too. If he travels a lot and tells you a time his flight leaves, call the airport and see if there is an actual flight. I don’t know. Examples are hard to give. Just try to verify some things to at least determine if he is being honest at the start with stuff. But try to keep this hidden. You don’t want him mistrusting you completely.

7) Is he wanting to know too much on what you are doing throughout the day? Is he wanting too much to know where you go and who were with and who you spoke to, etc? Know what I mean? Him asking you in general “so what did you do today?” is harmless and healthy. But wanting too many details could be showing you a sign of his inner desire to control, and his inner jealousy. This probably won’t happen so much at the start, but you want to be aware of this as time goes on. Guys who want minute-by-minute itineraries are often not really caring about what you did. They just want to get to the real jist of the purpose… to see or know if you spoke with any other men.

8) Does he ask too many questions about your male friends and or ex-boyfriends? This is especially important at the start of a relationship. Curiosity is normal. And it’s a good sign if a man is able to ask about old boyfriends and such. But be aware if he crosses the line from curiosity questions to that of jealousy questions. Jealousy can manifest by obsessive thoughts. Like for example if you are just friends with some guy and you have told your boyfriend the wording “I am just only friends with so-and-so”, but your boyfriend still sorts of provokes the idea/question that there might be more going on… that is a clear sign that he is jealous and has the potential to want to control. For he is not listening to you, but making assumptions in his own mind despite what you say. Plus he is starting to obsess, which is can lead to control problems. And observe the style of questions he asks about your male friends or ex-boyfriends. Is he truly wanting to know about them as a person? Or he is only wanting to know about things like break-up, intimacy you had with them, etc.

9) Has he asked you to stop seeing some or all of your friends? Don’t fall for this nonsense. I know this is a common request that men make towards women in Egypt. It is one of the worst signs of a control freak. No matter how he justifies it. Putting it on religion, his culture, whatever. It’s pure jealousy and control. Bas!!

10) Is he letting you meet and know his own friends? If not, then he is starting to keep a leash on you. He is showing signs of control and domination. In a normal relationship… you should be getting to know his friends like everybody going out to eat something together. Of course, when first dating, the couple usually desires to spend all their time alone. But it’s a good and healthy sign if he introduces you to his friends soon. Don’t fall for the typical excuse of ‘we have to keep this secret’. Friends are all playing the same cultural game. The truth is, his buddy isn’t going to tell anybody. So it should be safe for everybody to all to go out every once in a while for a group lunch or dinner. It’s important you see your guy with his friends… to see how he behaves, and to truly see if he wants to control you or really wants to integrate you into his life and for you to be free to interact with his friends.

continued.......

[sonicdude]

11) Sex talk too fast and too quickly at the start of a relationship. Is he getting into sexual topics and conversation too fast and too quickly after you first meet the guy? Warning sign!!! I don’t even need to explain this one. Initial flirting is much different than getting into topics about sex. Flirting is a subtle interaction based on attraction and appeal, but manifests discreetly. This is healthy and fun. But if the guy wants to start going into conversations about sex yet you’ve only just met him, or he wants to get into sex chat on the computer although you’ve only known him a week, etc…. this is a major sign of his true inner motives. Does he have self-control? This is a question you should be asking yourself? Is he respectful of your intimate privacy because he only just met you? This is another question you should be asking yourself.

12) Can he admit his mistakes and apologize without excuses and justifications? If not, you are going to have ego problems to deal with later.

13) Does he try to make you feel bad in order to make you feel guilty? Like if he knows you are busy with something for a few days, does he suddenly come down with a flu or cold just to make you feel guilty for not talking to him? Be aware and alert for any sort of mind games, for these mind games will just get worse later. And it reveals that he cannot be open and honest but instead has to play games in order to literally control your emotions.

14) Does he make fun of you or poke fun of you too much in an attempt to flirt? Making fun of each other gently is actually fun and flirtatious, but it just has to be harmless and very infrequent. If he does it too much or too often and it starts to annoy you, then he it is not being playful but instead starting to insult and be domineering. This is the type of guy who makes fun of you in front of people, thinking he is being sweet, but really it embarrasses you. Also, are you able to playfully make fun of him? Or is he overly sensitive and gets angry too fast?

15) Does he try to control what you are wearing? Either by comments, suggestions, justifications, etc? If so, this is a sign of control and jealousy. And nothing to do with religion. The pure truth is…. he doesn’t want other men to notice you because he fears that these men will flirt with you and that you will like the flirting and respond back to the men in a positive manner. That’s what it’s all about when you get down to it.

16) Does he justify a lot of his behavior on the Koran or his religion? Justifying too much can often be a sign that he is really hiding his true faults and always coming up with religious excuses to justify things.

17) Is he able to not speak with you for a few days? Is he able to let go and let you have your own life, or does he need to always check up on you or want you to check in with him? Giving you freedom and space is so important and is a sign of non-control.

18) Be careful of fancy trick verbage. “I am just jealous because I love you” and such. Learn to read between the lines. While his words might say something, they might be more revealing of something else.

19) Is he obsessed with ensuring you are a virgin? This is one of the worst obsessions, control, and jealousy issues. As a man myself, I know that inner feeling… we want to feel like we are the first person with this woman. But logically and mentally, it is wrong to push it on her and refuse to be with her if she has been with other men. It is normal to feel jealous and insecure. It is how this insecurity manifests and how we deal with it that is more important. And since I might have been with other women before, it is unethical to demand that she should not have been with other men before. When it comes down to things, a mature and intelligent man will see the importance of a woman having prior intimate experiences. If a man is truly experienced himself… trust me, he will want an experienced woman and NOT a virgin. Besides, men should deal with their insecurities by facing their faults and correcting them, not by finding someone who is at a lesser level of experience with the hopes that she won’t be able to figure out his faults.


I guess I could come up with more signs to look out for if I gave it more thought.

In my opinion… keep on guard for the following:

signs of control
signs of denial/blame
signs of inability to admit error and aplogize
signs of jealousy
signs of justifications/excuses
signs of trickery and lies
signs of anger/revenge

With these clues in mind, I would suggest the most important steps of all: Put him to the test! Start testing this man. When you test him, monitor carefully his responses, reactions, etc. Here’s some examples:

1) Gently disagree with him on something you disagree on. Speak up for yourself. Make it up if needed. See how he reacts. Is he open to your opinion and can he let your opinion remain yours? Or does he feel the need to convince you so much? Does he push the disagreement into a mild fight or debate? Does he start to get angry? Does he hold grudges if you disagree with him and his personality goes weird for a few days?

2) Go out with your friends, including male ones, and be sure he knows about it before hand. Does he say “ok, have a good time”? Or does he start to get weird on you? Does he try to play games and come up with reasons why you need to get back early to call him? Or does he say “ok, call me later when you are done”. Does he want a minute by minute intinerary when you return? Does he ask you about your friends as in how are they, what are they up to, what’s new, etc? Or is he mostly interested about who you were with and where you went and what you did, etc? Most of all, be sure you test his reaction on you going out with a male friend. Does he just want to know if there are other people with you? This is a sign of control and jealousy. When you return hom, is he suddenly unavailable (eg ignoring you) when you return home? This is a sign of jealousy. He cannot submit to his insecuries and fears what you may tell him. So he avoids talking with you.

3) Give him a surprise call at work to ask him a couple quick questions. Does he get angry or start acting weird? If so, then he is hiding something. If you just started the relationship and don’t have his work number… ask him for it. Tell him it’s incase of an emergency or something. If he gives it to you without delay, he is not playing games. He he comes up with excuses such as “I cannot accept personal calls at work”… well this is nonsense. Yes it’s true that nobody at work in any country is supposed to be accepting personal calls at work. But it happens, and it’s normal, and in general we all know it’s no big thing if it happens occassionally. Even bosses know this. But if he really refuses to give you his number or gets mad if you surprised him by calling him at work, these are clues that he is hiding something.

Continued......

[sonicdude]

4) More surprises!! If you are in communication with his family a little, or know his friends just a little, or know he is away from home… call them sometime. Perhaps even the excuse that you pushed the wrong number on the phone then chat briefly with his family or friend. Then tell him later that you accidentially called so and so. If he gets weird, then you know he might have a tendency to freak out when he feels out of control. This might not be the best surprise idea, but try to think of something yourself. The point is to catch him out of his control/comfort zone and see how he deals with it.

5) Get into a verbal strong fight every once in a while to see how much he can be provoked. Go easy on him though. Don’t mess with his mind too much. Just see if he flips out real fast or is able to maintain calm and control and compassion. Carefully monitor his reaction. Is he being compassionate to your opinon or just squashing your opinion? Does he start swearing and raising his voice? Or can he get angry at you more maturely in a calm and decent manner? If in person, does he try to grab you strong or does he change his body language to look more aggressive? These are signs. Problems and fights do happen in a relationship. This is normal and often healthy. But you want to determine if he is going to go way beyond the norm. Also, study his reactions afterwards. Can he forgive and let go? Or does he remain mad for a long time. Does he try days later make you feel guilty whereby wanting YOU to apologize or see his opinion? Does he ignore you? These are signs of him wanting to emotionally hurt you for exposing his faults or for challenging him. Also known as subtle forms of revenge.

6) Test his jealousy levels. Remember, a guy who is fiercely jealous is a guy who is control freak and who is terribly insecure. This is not a sign of love or him being so deeeply in love with you. If he is truly in love with you, the more he should respects your freedom, and the more he trusts you! Strict jealousy and control has nothing to do with love. So if you are out somewhere with him like at a restaurant, perhaps ask the male waiter an extra question too much. Or share a quick laugh with a male stranger; like crack a joke to a male stranger who is standing in line with you and your guy, or something. I am not meaning flirt with another guy. Just be friendly to another male infront of your guy. Ask a question, or do something funny, or laugh at some other man’s joke. Whatever, giving your attention momentarily and innocently to another man…. just to see how your boyfriend reacts. Can your guy get over the ‘she is giving attention to another guy’ feeling? Or can your dude laugh along or join in with the conversation? Does your guy make an issue of it later? Etc.

7) Make your guy own up to a mistakes and apologize. Determine if him giving apology is going to be a huge ordeal and nightmare for you, or if he is willing to admit his mistake and say sorry without too much delay. If he hurts your feelings or says something that really hurts you, demand an apology right away. See how he responses to your display of power over him. Is he able to submit and be compassionate to your feelings, or does he simply feel the need to raise up higher and in more control?


I guess there are lots of other ways to test men. But go easy on us!!! We’re not perfect and some of us are trying real hard. Some of you women aren’t perfect also and are full of quirks and problems. Also, don’t scare him away. Initial problems/issues he might have might be just that… initial problems. Men can be trained!

Mostly, you just want to understand an overall personality. And test in stages… at the beginning of a relationship, after a few weeks, and especially important… after a few months when his habits are starting to firmly form.

The point is... find those clues. Signs of control, quick to anger, and jealousy are major issues you need to find out quickly. You won't see them manifest right away fully of course. But if these aspects are present within the personality of that guy, he will give away clues. The idea is to spot the clues first so you can determine if this guy is potential bad news later. And if you ignore the signs and clues, well later you are definately going to have a huge problem on your hands. For his jealousy and control is only going to get worse, and especially after you marry him.

The best piece of advice I can give….. don’t lower your standards too much. If you are going to spend the rest of your life with a guy, be sure he fulfills you romantically, mentally, spiritually, and physically. Keep looking for that guy if the current one is not it! There are good guys out there who are not control freaks.

Also, be aware of the advantages that the Egyptian man has for masking or covering up his true darker personality simply by living in Egypt. Some of the behavoir an Egyptian man does in Egypt he would never be able to get away with in another culture or in another country. Be aware that he might use his Egyptian culture and Muslim religion to his darker selfish advantage. For example, as mentioned before, it is often normal in Egypt for a man to tell or ask his girlfriend not to see any friends and such when dating. But overseas, he would never be able ask such nonsense. In Egypt, it is somewhat taboo for a male and female friend to hang out together if not with a group of people. Some men play into this and tell the women that she should not and cannot be talk with another man alone and then justifies it with religion He can get away with this request. But if he was in Europe or Canada, or wherever… the woman would be less likely to put up with this nonsense. Another example which is very important… in Egypt, of course, dating before marriage is very frowned upon. Thus couples have to often keep their relationship secret and private from family and friends. Well this works out perfectly for the man who is cheating on his wife with a girlfriend on the side! Because they have to meet in private and such… the girlfriend may never know that the man really has a wife. She just thinks that because of family (parents) and friends, they have to keep the relationship secret. This is one of the best example of how a man uses his own culture to his darker advantage. Another example, controlling how a woman dresses and justifying it with religion. In a strong religious culture, you can get away with it and all it seems so justified. But in another culture, his controlling jealous side will be exposed! Egyptian men can and do use their own cultural restrictions to their advantage in order to manipulate or control woman. If you are finding a lot of these cultural justifications are coming up in his excuses to you, he might be just trying to manipulate you by making you think ‘this is the norm here and this is what we have to do’ rather than to think ‘he is flawed and has some major control issues’.

I would like to mention one more thing... if you break up from an Egyptian man, just do it. Don't give him any room to weasel back, try to sweet-talk you, etc. Cut the strings completely, don't accept his calls which will go on for weeks, and deal with your emotional losses on your own. And be very alert for signs of revenge. It is doubtful he will hurt you, but he certainly might try to spread rumours about you. For if you break up out of anger, he might not be able to handle that level of control and power coming from you. Just be careful, and be smart, and see the support and help from your friends.

The best thing.... spot the signs and clues before you even get fully involved with the man. The more women start standing up and demand that Egyptian men grow up, the quicker the men are going to be forced into submission and start respecting women. They are simply so bad these days because they know they can get away with it.

Have you ever thought why Arab men hate or criticize western culture so much? Nothing to do with religion. Nothing to do with politics. It has to do with fear and insecurity towards their woman gaining more power, gaining more rights, and gaining more strength. Control over women, or specifically... control over a woman's body... is what I feel it all boils down to, but this is just my personal observation. But it's a baseless fear; fear without reason. For once a man experiences the stunning rewards of treating their women with ultimate respect and equality, they will realize that true male power doesn't come from control or repression over women.

True male power comes from how men treat others, how men treat women, how men treat children, how men treat animals, and how men treat the planet. For ultimately, how men treat all life on this earth is how a man treats God. Since it is God who made all things and beings, and it is God who has given us this life. Too bad most men out there insult and disrepect God so much by treating one of His most stunning creations - the human female - with such disregard, disarray, and delinquency. Any man who tries to control women, or worse - emotionally and physically abuses them - well these men are pathetic and not religious whatsoever. Keep this in mind when you meet your next "muslim" man.



Amir

[barefoot]

I love reading your replies and may I say.. You are highly intelligent??? Of all the sites I have been on concerning Egyptian men or living in/or visiting Egypt your replies are the best and to the fullest extent! But, if you will please give these love-starved females a little insite as what to look for when chatting online with these guys.. you went into this to some extent, but not maybe as fully as you could have.. knowing mostly what you were covering was being in person with them. A lot of the problem nowdays is these (foreign) girls are meeting them online and then proceeding to travel to Egypt to meet them.. If they knew more of what to look for when going online with them, maybe they would wise up! I also read another article of yours regarding.. "What is the love for Egyptian men" and I quote, " lack of maturity and self-control. Some of the things I experienced with Egyptian men: denial, blame, perversions, lying, cheating, anger, revenge, conspiracy, using religion to justify immature behavior, irresponsibility, mask painting, jealousy, and more.

Never have I heard it said better than this! Someone, somewhere needs to open up the eyes of these unsuspecting and vunerable women/or girls. And I cannot think of anyone other than you doing this job!!! You are doing great! And may I say the woman that latches on to you has indeed found herself a real prize!!
I have dated three guys from three separate cultures and countries and the differences are profound. If they are so love struck on Egyptian men maybe it is the Muslim male (his characteristics and traits) they are seeking or searching for and calling it in the name of :Egyptian men and not smart enough to know it.
Concerning the Egyptian men I could go into stories after story but you being male and Muslim yourself you can explain it much better than me and women have a way of listening to intelligent men more than another woman .. as well it should be I guess. But if they are looking for a rose among the thorns Egyptian men are not what they need. I guess there are a handful of good Egyptian men, but I have yet to find just one!

[byhisgrace]

I had same concerns as opalmoon and I am speaking with an Egyptian man over the internet for some time now and he showed some signs that worried me but I just keep trying to find the real person I was talking to. I just keep him on his toes and asked same questions weeks later to see if he kept with his story or to see if he remembered me asking question before and if he did what was his responce like did he get angry I was checking up on him. Also I found with his lack of communication skills with the english language he did repeat things but as we chatted he learned more and opened up more. At first his lack of communacation skills limited his words to me so he tried to impress me with the song and dance about being a strong man and treating me like a queen but now we speak openly, he doesnt show the immaturity that was there before because he can express himself better. I do not feel an entire group is bad because of what some do, there are good men out there from all walks of life and it just takes time to sort out the bad apples. My case maybe different or similar but we are both christians and he does not live in Egypt , going into any relationship you must have a list of sorts that you want or need from someone and no matter where they are from you must make sure they fullfill that list, some may say it as dont settle. So I say keep the faith and keep your heart guarded until your true prince whoever he may be comes along. That just my thoughts.... ;D

[opelmoon]

Thank you all for your wise words, I will take them and see how things go.

[deefa]

God opelmoon, what interesting reading you have really set mind thinking-my husband of 1 year (is of curse) sorry of course egyptian from Luxor! Lots of things you stated i can see in him, i have converted to mulsim he asks me to cover my head and wear the same clothes as his mother and sisters when i am now in egypt, he also as asked me to stop seeing 2 of my male friends that live there, and all becoz he loves me? His cousin is getting married in a few months when he as eventually saved up enough money to complete his flat, when i was there last week he told me that when he's married his wife will cook clean, iron and must not go out other than with his permission she may visit friends only once in the week and be home when he gets in from work the flat he as he as checked that the neigbours are all good people and will watch his wife whilst he is working she will not be allowed to go or do anything without his permission. As a westerner i find this unbeleiveable but all his family is the same and the women are very happy to live this way in fact they seem so much happier than women in the west. I am still new to all this but not stupid and will not part with my money easily i have taken everything you have said in, and thank you for your wisdom.